The Ivy League: Questions, Answers, Fit and Philosophy

In a recent post, I talked about the need for families, students and educators to emphasize choosing a college or university based on fit instead of reputation. Since posting it I have received a number of comments that support what I have written by a number of educators who work with students. What I have said is nothing new. If fact, almost anyone who helps students choose school repeat the mantra about fit.

You would think with so many people re-enforcing this advice it would be the accepted approach to take among many who are now applying to schools. If you did think this, however, you would, in some cases, perhaps even the majority of cases, be wrong.  Why? We cannot avoid hearing about rankings. We are surrounded by them: they show up on our phones, computers, TV screens and on the lips of many who work for colleges and universities, as well as in the hearts and minds of friends and family members too.  Every day there must seems to be a least one new list of top 10 places to go to school: for the best jobs, the best parties, the best resources the best profs. The list is not endless but is long and in most case not all that helpful.  Lists like this are meant to draw people in and sometimes that outweighs the value of the information provide. But we can’t seem to help ourselves from looking (I include myself in this.)

Whether it be a ranked sports team or Forbes’ richest, or the top colleges and universities, we are awash in rankings. Those who can afford to go to the top destinations in the world or buy the top car, or attend a “top school” (in at least one of the multiple and often conflicting iterations) are often (too often) held in high esteem. It is almost inevitable that saying the magic words “I got into an Ivy or Stanford or MIT” will get you wide-eyed looks of admiration or pats on the back and then the inevitable question: “How did you do it?”

What follows is a question that was posed on the website Quora.com.  In response, Bryce Aebi, someone who attended one of these elite schools posted a great answer. It’s clear he has insight into the factors that go into choosing to attend an Ivy. It is also clear he has the wisdom to look over his experience with some questions of his own. And finally it is clear he now sees that the validation one gets from saying to others where one ‘got in’, may not be all that great a reason to choose to attend a particular school.

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What motivated you to go to an Ivy League School?

I want to know some testimonials of what pushed some young people to go for a seat at one of the difficult schools to get into. I would like to one day send my children to the really great schools out there and maybe even encourage my nephew to be more than a nothing (he's only six so all hope isn't lost or anything.)I want to know what got some people to go instead take an easier route. Did something in particular influence you into going? Did someone?

Also, did you think it was particularly difficult getting in? Do you think that you had to give up much to get in? Did you have some strategic advantage, family friends or relatives who helped get you in?

And finally, do you think that it was particularly worth the effort?

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Bryce Aebi, Musician, Developer

I am just finishing my time at Brown University and I have to say that in retrospect, the Ivy League is overrated.

When one is a high school junior and a relatively good student, there is implicit peer pressure to get into a "top school." Parents often pressure their children to get into these "top schools," and students are motivated by the hope of achieving what they believe their peers dream of achieving.

When I got into Brown I was more naive than I am now (probably still pretty naive though). I was excited that it had a well known name, that it was old, that some of my peers were probably slightly envious. I have to admit that I enjoyed when various adults heard where I was going, raised their eyebrows, and murmured "whoa." (Nowadays it's difficult to keep from rolling my eyes when this happens). In short, I felt validated. I chose Brown particularly for the open curriculum, but also with the assumption that, as an Ivy League school--a "top school" if you will--any field I chose to major in would have an excellent department. (This turns out to be far from the truth actually).

You'll notice that I keep mentioning "top school" in quotations. This is because there is no such thing as a "top school." Different schools are "top schools" for different people. That said, it is a student's personal drive that will ultimately determine success. I strongly believe that this is the key factor in success, however you define that word. Sure, perhaps you see a higher proportion of "successful" Ivy League grads, but I believe this is a correlation rather than a causation. Admissions are low for these schools, and as a result, the students who get in tend to be smart and motivated, at least during their junior year of high school. On the other hand, Ivy League schools do not make students smart and motivated.

Now although I have been extolling the virtues of choosing a school that is a good fit for the individual applying, in order to be transparent I feel the need to address a few actual advantages included with an "Ivy League education." I absolutely hate to admit it, but there is value in the name of the school. Getting into an Ivy League school at the end of high school does suggest being at the top of one's class... at the end of high school. In reality, some people shape up after high school while others get lazy. Some people attend public schools for cost efficiency. Many choose other schools because they truly believe those schools are the right fit. Yet we live in a society that idolizes the Ivy League and perpetuates the stereotype of educational and even social superiority. Even worse are the Ivy League alumni who perpetuate that stereotype themselves--those who believe their privilege is a right, their education an entitlement. Unfortunately it is often these people--usually but not always bankers and consultants on Wall Street--who exclusively recruit at Ivy League colleges,  believing that only students with the same entitlement are acceptable candidates. But in the end, if you believe that success and fulfillment are measured in more than money, why would you want to work with people like that anyway?

The other most significant advantage that comes to mind is the community of great thinkers. I'm not really even talking about professors, I'm talking about peers. Ivy League schools are competitive and this attracts a community with a high proportion of bright students. I wouldn't say that all students are great thinkers, but you don't need to look too far to find peers who can help you grow intellectually. This community of peers is not a product of the school, but a product of the stereotype of greatness that attracts the most competitive students to the Ivy League, paradoxically making the stereotype in some ways true.

To come back to some of your questions, I didn't feel like I had to "give up much to get in." Aside from getting good grades and studying for the SAT, I never went out of my way to "make myself look good" for college applications. I took a few AP courses in subjects that interested me. I was on the tennis team because I enjoyed tennis. I played in the jazz band because I enjoyed music. I was on the debate team because I enjoyed the rush of critical thinking in a competitive environment. My motto was and is "Don't do anything you don't want to do. Don't jump through other people's hoops." (Within reason of course--there are some things you really ought to do legally and/or ethically). Brown attracted me because it offered the freedom to choose which classes I wanted to take. I wouldn't have to complete distribution requirements I had no interest in.

As for Brown being "difficult" to get into, I feel like the only extra effort required was writing a few essays for my application. Obviously prerequisites include doing well in school and scoring high on the SAT, but difficulty varies depending on the person.

What I'd like you to take away from this is that despite the hype you hear, the Ivy League isn't for everyone and it's not a magic potion for success. It doesn't guarantee a good education, it doesn't guarantee personal or financial fulfillment. People don't need the validation of an Ivy League school to be successful. If they are great, that greatness will ultimately shine through.

And finally, you can rest assured that if your nephew doesn't get into an Ivy League school or doesn't want to he will in no way be a "nothing."

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I hope that many students who are currently dreaming of the Ivy League will read these words. I hope a lot of parents who hope to be able to share with others that their son or daughter goes to an Ivy will read them too.

Bryce does not portray an Ivy from the point of view of a withering critic.  Bryce takes a much more nuanced view that recognizes that there are some great things and there are some other things that might not be great for certain students.  In this he echoes a bit of what Malcolm Gladwell has written about, using the same school as an example, in a chapter in his book David and Goliath. Going to a school with students who have stood out among a huge pool of qualified applicants means that the competition among students will be, in some cases, tough. For those that think going to an Ivy always opens doors, it does for those who do well. But going to another school and doing very well may be better for some that accepting the offer from a school filled with some of the more high achieving students from all over the world. Another mantra I have about fit goes like this: it is better to be a star at a less competitive school than it is to be in the bottom half of a class at a top 10 ranked school. Both Gladwell and I have data to back this up so it is not just an opinion.

Bryce may not cite stats to back up his assertions about the benefits of attending an Ivy, but I agree with him when it comes to the intangible benefits that come with attending an elite schools that are not always found elsewhere:

The other most significant advantage that comes to mind is the community of great thinkers. I'm not really even talking about professors, I'm talking about peers. Ivy League schools are competitive and this attracts a community with a high proportion of bright students. I wouldn't say that all students are great thinkers, but you don't need to look too far to find peers who can help you grow intellectually. This community of peers is not a product of the school, but a product of the stereotype of greatness that attracts the most competitive students to the Ivy League, paradoxically making the stereotype in some ways true. 

What Bryce has experienced directly contradicts a former Ivy prof whose article, Don’t Send Your Kid To the Ivy League, went viral. I have written to differ with the author of this article a number of times. My experience with him in person did not change my mind. I know many students at Ivies and other highly selective schools, like Bryce, who have found exceptional peers who have cared deeply about thinking and not just about future careers. Unlike the hyperbolic article , which calls students names and makes a lot of denigrating generalizations that have virtually no data to support them, Bryce sees both the positive and the negative. While Byrce's comets about Ivy alumni support some of the thesis of  Don't Send Your Kid to An Ivy, he also give a number of positive qualities that show things are rarely one-sided on issues that are this big and complex.He is, in other words,  a deep thinker in ways that the former Ivy prof is not. Bryce is far more like one of the great philosophers of the 20th Century--Ludwig Wittgenstein. He talked about how we need to think deeply through the use of language used as tools. The more tools, the more thinking. He also demonstrated how things can often be  more than one thing at one. He famous rabbit/duck picture captures this visually. Bryce captures how an elite university can be both elitist in a negative sense while at the same time a place to develop skills, meet great people, and strive to succeed among a group on high achievers. Both/and. 

Rabbit/Duck: which is it? 

One thing  that Bryce has down-played is how hard it is to get in. I think he is being too modest about what he did in secondary school in order to stand out. Most students who get in are at or near the top of the class in terms of grades, have great testing and academic programs, impressive activities, essays that sing, and recommendations that often approach the hagiographic. Schools that accept less than 10% of those that apply from a deep pool end up taking those who have achieved  remarkable things in secondary school. The stress some feel about the process is not completely off the mark. And each year it  gets more competitive to get in, as schools boost applications by reaching out using more sophisticated marketing and more ways to getting out the name to prospective students across the US and the world. But rather than end with what some would rightly say is a rather somber message, I want to highlight what Bryce says that people should “take away" from his response to the question:

What I'd like you to take away from this is that despite the hype you hear, the Ivy League isn't for everyone and it's not a magic potion for success. It doesn't guarantee a good education, it doesn't guarantee personal or financial fulfillment. People don't need the validation of an Ivy League school to be successful. If they are great, that greatness will ultimately shine through. 

These words should be posted on college counseling office and used right now as secondary schools begin to host programs from 11^th graders and their parents. These words underscore my last mantra for this entry: It does not matter much where you go to school as long Finding a number of schools that are great fits is far more important than the name of the school. Bryce says this far more eloquently than I could:

You'll notice that I keep mentioning "top school" in quotations. This is because there is no such thing as a "top school." Different schools are "top schools" for different people. That said, it is a student's personal drive that will ultimately determine success. I strongly believe that this is the key factor in success, however you define that word. 

I would like to thank Bryce for giving me permission to post his words here. Once again I have found that it is students or recent grads who often have the perspective and insight that educates me more effectively than some of the supposed educational experts and pundits. The linguistic and neural toolkit we carry inside our heads to fix and adjust our place in the world sometimes has just a hammer a wrench and a screwdriver.  We use them even if they might not be the right ‘fit’. But sometimes we need a putty knife, or spring clamps, or pliers. We need to expand our vocabulary  of schools we can use to ‘fix’ our brains in ways that will lead to working well in jobs, in our relationships and I our world.  For those who want read about what the Common Core Toolkit looks like go here)