Joyce Slayton Mitchell has a secret. Actually
she probably has more than several books’ worth but there is one in particular
I want her to share with me.
How does she do it? By it I mean all the
things she does. For most in the world of education and selective admission you
have heard of Joyce as many may have read at least some of her books. Those who
have not should. She’s been publishing books since the 1970’s. The topics range
from finding the best pastries in Paris, to surviving Chemo, to a large number
of books on her most significant area of expertise: selective admission to US
schools.
She travels the world visit schools and giving presentations. She is, without a doubt, one of the leading experts in the field. I ma honored then that she has taken the time between writing editorials for her local paper, jetting back and forth across continents to answer some of my questions here. I think after reading her words you will agree that she is open, honest and does not worry about saying things that should be said. Her reputation an experience and personality all make her one to speak her mind. We are the lucky beneficiaries.
She travels the world visit schools and giving presentations. She is, without a doubt, one of the leading experts in the field. I ma honored then that she has taken the time between writing editorials for her local paper, jetting back and forth across continents to answer some of my questions here. I think after reading her words you will agree that she is open, honest and does not worry about saying things that should be said. Her reputation an experience and personality all make her one to speak her mind. We are the lucky beneficiaries.
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Questions
Questions
Some of the comments from the highest
profile deans of Admission at highly selective colleges and universities attest
you are one of the world’s experts on education and admission around the globe.
While I wish I could ask all the questions I have, I do want to focus on a few
areas that have come up recently in conferences, stories in major publications,
and on website groups of counselors and educators. My questions focus, then,
mostly on international students but much of what you will say, does, I think,
apply to any student.
I’d like to start with what I’d call the 7
pillars of wisdom. These are the 7 “assumptions” you ask students focus on in
your latest book:
1. Choose many
favorite colleges.
The point is to start out by scanning about
350 colleges (Fiske guide Insiders guide, for example) and then researching
about 20 colleges, selecting 8-10 colleges for final list. On the final list - DO NOT PRIORITIZE that
college list to which you are going to apply.
Prioritizing closes minds. I am
not an early fan, even though ED is probably appropriate for about 10% of all
applicants. Students seldom (almost
never) hear the downside of going early: closing minds, knowing almost nothing
about the colleges on lower half of list: and chances of getting into a 50/50%
chance plummeting to 5%. On the other
hand, I am so afraid that students
often choose only those colleges they learn of by "hearsay" that then
become favorites before they know a thing about them… and then have to go to a
"favorite" before they even know if they are accepted or not.
My point is to research what's out there without prioritizing… or at
least try to do that.
2. You are in
charge.
Asian students seem to think it’s best to
have an outside of school agent or business or “helper” to write their
applications and essays. Their application will be a lot more interesting to
the US college deans if it is their own voice, the voice of a Chinese 17 or 18
year old.
3. Make a friend of
your advocates.
This is basically a U.S. basic assumption,
to include the school college counselor, the regional rep from the colleges
where the student is applying.
4. SATs, IELTS, and
TOEFL won’t get you in.
A 650-650-650 SAT will not keep an American
student out of any U.S. college; no score will guarantee admission.
5. The college
market is not a tight market.
Sure, the top 25 US colleges and
universities are a tight market- simple economics- supply and demand. We also have 2,600 four-year, degree-granting
colleges in the USA with hundreds of fabulous colleges and universities that
you have never heard of that will be a wonderful place for you to live and
learn.
6. Personalize the
process.
The colleges want to know: Who is this kid for the opportunities she has
had – in writing. Make an effort to
bring a Chinese or Korean or Indian or however your country or region of a
country has influenced you. For example,
many Chinese students write about America rather than China… that doesn’t add
anything to the classroom discussion from a Chinese student. Talk about Chinese art, or history, or
Communist government, because YOU bring a CHINESE point of view to the college
campus is one reason you will be accepted.
7. Be authentically
and specifically you.
Yup!
Do you think these 7 pillars apply to all students across the
globe and are there some that might be more important for domestic student and
some that might be more important for international students?
The weakest link in the college admissions
selection process is researching what’s out there. This is true worldwide. The student is responsible for researching
the colleges. The goal is to find a
college list that includes a good fit and a range of selectivity. You can’t find 8 or 10 that sound right for
you? Then go back to the drawing board
and look at Fiske, the Insiders’ Guide, and or the Ultimate Guide to America’s Best Colleges
until you have a range of selectivity within the kind of culture where you will
live and learn best
In your work with international students and families is it
harder to open up choices and options to students or parents?
Usually harder to go beyond the ranking of
colleges with parents to explore what’s out there. I depend upon selling the student the
rational for a good fit and range and they convince their parents enough to
apply. Parents are not convinced until
decisions are in. By that time, the
student knows the college and himself well enough to convince his parents of
his options – often different than the possibilities the parents are dreaming
about. American parents are much more
eager to give the responsibility of the choice to their children. That’s out of the question with Asian parents
(living in Asia).
Do you think the education systems in the big 3, Korea,
China, and India have anything to teach educators in the US?
We all have something to learn from each
other. My dream is to get Asian students
to the USA to show American students the discipline of daily study habits as
the Asian students learn about time out for team sports, music, debate, lab
work, and play. Also in my dream – for
American young women to see that the Asians have not yet learned that “girls
can’t do math.”
Do you think any of these 3 systems could learn some useful
things about primary and secondary education from the US?
For some reason, American primary educators
have decided that computers take the place of writing, and calculators the
place of learning times-tables. The
latest brain research shows that writing cursive increases brain activity that
reinforces memorization. When the
Chinese learn (and they all do) how to write their characters, they must learn
not only the strokes of each character, but the order in which it is written,
and it must be perfect as practiced on special paper of little boxes. The numbers of characters and stroke order,
learned to perfection leads to memories that make mathematics and foreign
languages disciplines that anyone who has learned to write characters can
learn!
The
Chinese are currently interested in American Montasori kindergartens for their
pre-school children. It’s an incredible
thought, as it’s opposite of their school system that has no time for activities
that can’t be tested by a “right” and “wrong” answer. The Chinese know that. But until they get rid of testing to get into
First grade, middle, high school, and the gaokao
for university, given the limited number of places starting with first grade
for the population and the scarcity factor in their history, no matter what changes
they think would provide a better education, parents can’t afford to take a
chance in a system that does not offer a Plan B for their child.
Do you think the Pisa rating system of education is an
accurate assessment of student skills? Both Korea and China (or at least
Shanghai) come out at the top. Is this mostly because of the role of rote
learning or are there other important factors at play?
Well it’s certainly an accurate assessment
of test-taking. The debatable question
is, “What is education?” Is it to be
doing well on tests? Writing well?
Asking great questions? Curiosity?
Reading and discussing great books?
I remember the Director of Admissions at Colgate telling the parents at
Newark Academy, in l990, that they were not only looking for students who have
the right answers, but they were searching the world for the students who had
the best questions. Pisa ratings are not
related to student questions
Do you think that Asian students in general and specifically
international students from Asia are held to higher academic standards than
other groups of students applying to selective schools? Certainly the
acceptance rates are lower but the response I hear is that the holistic process
weeds out many who are good test takers and not much else. Is this accurate in
your experience?
No, I don’t think they are holding Asians
to higher standards. Test scores do not get students in for anyone. Perfect test scores of Americans are turned
down at a high rate simply because on our campuses, with our particular style
of learning of discussion and writing, a perfect test score is not a perfect
applicant. If anything, the expectation for students with
English as a second language are not required to do as well in writing as
Americans. They don’t hold them to higher
standards in math and science; on the other hand, they don’t forgive a 650 math
score for an Asian simply because looking at their pool, there are more
international students than they are going to take with 750 math scores. And of course an American school is not going
to take as many international students as American students. Twenty percent international students is
high, most strive for 10%. And within the international population, US colleges
still are seeking diversity with a few qualified students from as many
different countries as they can get.
That means that when Asian applications go up, the US numbers of Asians
are not rising with those applicant numbers and therefore their chances for
getting in are more competitive.
A recent article in the NY Times made much of the fact that
spaces US student are losing spaces in dramatic percentages to international
students? Do you think this is accurate?
That’s typical hyperbole journalism. One could say that ordinary US students are
losing spaces in dramatic percentages to extraordinary American students who
work harder in their everyday schoolwork in mathematics, physical sciences, and
a foreign language.
Most highly selective colleges and universities enroll less
than 10% of their incoming classes with international students. Do you think
this percentage is too high or two low?
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard all take more
than 10% of their incoming class. I
think that the particular college or university’s board or legislature determines
their own institutional priorities, as they should. The beauty of American higher education is
that it’s different college by college.
The diversity that colleges look for in students also provides our
students a great variety of campus cultures on which to study in America.
What
do you think of the phenomenon of schools out of the very top that are now
enrolling very large numbers of international students? Do you think they are
doing this primarily to increase diversity or are they doing this because
virtually all the students are full payers?
Probably for both reasons, which they have
a right to do. Private colleges have
always had the freedom to take whomever they want to take. And state legislators, too, have the freedom
to say how many or few international students should be in each class, and how
much money the state is willing to pay for out-of-state students on their tax
dollar.
Do you think students should think twice about enrolling in
schools that have, literally thousands or hundreds or students from their own
countries? Doesn’t this represent a huge challenge to these students to escape
the bubble of just communicating with students from their own country?
I tell the Chinese students that I work
with that if they want to go UCLA they might as well save their money and stay
in China… they won’t know the difference.
Do your international students tell you if they face racism
or xenophobia on campuses? Should this be a big concern?
The Mainland Chinese and Korean students
are so thrilled to be in the USA, that they don’t care if they fit in or not –
if it’s an acceptable ranking to them.
If they are in engineering or accounting, they wouldn’t notice
discrimination because there are so many of them. I have heard about xenophobia on campus much
more from Chinese- or Korean-Americans, than from the nationals.
There have been a number of studies and stories lately that
the biggest concern international students have these days are access to
internships, job training and employment after graduation. Are you hearing this
from parents and students you work with and if so what are you telling them? Do
you think schools have set aside enough staff and money for international
students once they arrive on campuses?
Two
different questions:
1.
After graduation: I never hear about after graduation simply
because students and parents think only of getting in.
Another story that has been followed by a number of educators
is that the number of students applying from Korea has dropped in recent years.
Why do you think this has happened?
It happened first when the economy of Korea
went down and the economy of China went up so dramatically. After all, the Koreans were here before the
Chinese. The parents that I met this
year in Seoul (whose children were in a Korean government-sponsored British
boarding school in Jeju) are as interested in the UK and Japanese universities,
and starting to look at China for university.
The Chinese parents and students, unlike the Koreans, think the moon is
bigger in the West than it is in China, so said Deng Xiaoping, and I feel the
difference in working with the two nations.
It is also true that the number of students from China, by
far the biggest number of international students, has dropped at the graduate
level. I am of the opinion that in the not too distant future the huge rush to
come to the US for education at the undergraduate level will also slow and
perhaps begin to drop too. What do you think?
I find the Chinese crazy for US
education. Numbers of prep school
applicants, homestays, public and Catholic high schools have rocketed in past
two years. Maybe the graduates dropped
in the USA, because so many US graduate programs have opened in China, as well
as MBA programs in English from all over the globe. On the other hand, the Chinese are making up
for any drop in graduate school by their new surge for prep school, homestays
in public and Catholic high schools.
Loads of small businesses popping up in China and the USA for getting
them younger and younger, all in response to the Chinese parents demand of a
USA education. Remember Deng, “The moon
is bigger in the West!” And in the
“West” means USA when the students have a choice
Do you think students from India face any special challenges
when applying? Do you think it is harder for them to get accepted to
engineering programs or schools that focus on engineering and science?
The Indian students have the advantage over
other Asian students of English as a first or very early second language. Their parents speak English. The special challenges will be the same as
the Chinese in that so many apply for the same few colleges and diversity
values on the part of the university means that the odds are tough. I find, however, that Indians are much more
interested in medical school and all the health fields than the Chinese. In fact many of the Seven-year medical school
programs in the USA are filled with Indians.
I have seldom met a Chinese student or heard a question about biological
sciences leading to medicine or the health field. So yes, the Indian students applying to
health-related programs have a lot more competition from each other.
What do you like most about working with international
students? What do you like least?
I like most the adventure of being with
students from an Eastern culture. There
is nothing that I don’t like about working with international students in their
own country. I love the flying to get
there. I love the food in various
places. I love meeting new people. I love the surprises I get about food,
values, fashion, families, parenting, new subways, regional flights, and the
ambition of the young start-up workers in the companies with whom I often
work.
Do you have any specific stories of a student or two you have
worked with over the last couple of years that you might be able use to inspire
other students?
The most common stories are when a student
doesn’t get in where he is sure he will be admitted. The following summer he tells
me that he can’t believe how great his school is! It will do no good to tell current students
that story because they don’t believe it until Christmas time of freshman
year. When junior parents used to ask me
at my school in NYC, how many seniors got into their “First Choice,” I always
replied, “They all did by Christmas of their freshman year.”
One of the big issues that schools have these days about
international students has to do with how much help they get preparing their
applications. How much help is enough and how much is too much? More
specifically, all of us need editors. Every great writer over the last century
always thanks their editors when their books come out. Editors sometimes have a
light touch and others are interventionists. Should this be true of counselors
helping students write essays, especially in a second language?
In China, I work in the public schools, and
there is no counselor to do anything with college admissions. I usually am there a very short time,
speaking to students, faculty and parents about the process of getting into US
colleges. Parents and students want to
believe me when I say, “Test scores will not get you in, and a perfect test
score is not a perfect applicant.” They
just can’t conceive of it. Most of the
students who come to the USA go to “schools” outside of their regular school, a
small business where promises are made to the families about admissions. Parents often pay the business according to
the rank of the college to which they are accepted. I asked one CEO about their prices for helping
the student with test-prep and the application process, and learned that “it
depends,” on what module they choose. “For
example, they can come after school each day for a test-prep course, every
weekend and holiday for writing the essay (which they seem to think is more
important that writing the application), writing the teacher recommendations,
writing the school transcript (most schools do not have a transcript, only the gaokao test score in July of senior
year). Or, the CEO informed me, they can give us their password and we’ll do
the rest.”
In conversation with two of the admissions
deans from the Five Sister Colleges, about two years ago, their experience was
that they didn’t care who wrote the essay or took the SAT for the Chinese
students, “They work so hard when they get here and no one has flunked out.” I can believe that.
I am currently working with a Jiangsu
province education group who wants to select their top students from 15,000
international program students in their public schools to learn more about US
colleges and universities. I had suggested
and we create an essay competition in the 500 schools, which is being
administered in early July in school. It
is given in their English class. I gave them a choice of three questions, all
personal opinion, no right and wrong answers.
The instructions given to the teacher was to say that the US colleges
are looking for what the Chinese point of view can add to the discussion – in
the classroom, locker room, dormitory, and coffee house. I have read the first group that just came in
and I can tell you it will be easy to choose, as like their education, they all
sound exactly alike. Very boring, no personal view whatsoever. Stay tuned; I hope to be surprised when I’ve
seen a lot more of them.
Should essays from international student be held to the same
stylistic standards as those from domestic students?
No, of course not. I don’t think any student with English as a
second language can be judged from the same writing standards. I try to help students to use language they
use, not words they learn in their test-prep classes and instructed will “get
them in.” In the boring essays I read
from Chinese applicants, who aren’t given time nor encouragement to ask
questions in class or at school, their language usage was fine, it was how they
think so narrowly that was troublesome in a discussion and essay writing kind
of education. They think as they are
taught with a right or wrong answer, rather than a personal opinion kind of
essay, that the American deans are looking for.
Do you have any advice that you would give to parents about
how best to support their students through the process?
Oh yes.
As I tell parents, “I have advice about everything and there are
exceptions to everything I say!” I try
hard to get them to realize and remember that their children want to get into a
top school, too. To back off pushing for
extra test prep and adding some volunteer activity because “it will be good for
your college app.” The important thing
about their academic record, their activities, and summer holidays is not what
they do, but what they learned from their experiences in and out of
school. And how they write about what
they learned.
Anything else you want to add?
The college choice is so much more than it
appears. The social visibility of the
teen-agers’ decisions adds to the emotional burden of the process. Everyone feels free to ask a teenager,
“What’s your top choice? First
choice?” “Did you get in?”
Naming the college is not the all of
it. Add leaving home to that process –
leaving parents and siblings, friends, relatives, teachers and coaches weighing
in on what and whom they are leaving.
The truth of the process gets closer when educators and families realize
that the college choice is choosing the next home in which to live and learn. Their first time- for most students- away
from home.
Joyce knows the way students think. And
parents, and just about everyone else who comes within earshot of kid starting
to look at schools. The question What is your first choice may seem innocent
enough but behind those 5 words come a whole dark closet full of assumptions,
reactions, and, often unsupported generalizations.
Questions like this should not have a right
answer, but they do, at least to those who think about rankings more than fit.
And that, frankly, is a lot of us. It’s hard not to. The way to sell stuff is
to create lists. Just scroll down Facebook and before long a list of 10 best,
worst, sexiest, somethingest will pop up. And because these lists get the most
hits, more lists proliferate. Every day a new way of ranking schools comes out,
some silly, some downright misleading.
Joyce brings her knowledge to far away places,
as many there will not have the opportunity to visit a campus. They depend far
more on rankings and what is called common wisdom but isn’t. I would call for uncommon wisdom, the wisdom
that comes from Joyce suggests—doing research on lots of schools. This
essential step gets bypassed by too many in favor of lists and rankings.
Her understanding of how education systems across the world can cross-pollinate to create hybrids that thrive seems like something more researchers and experts should call for.
I particularly like that Joyce underscores
personalizing the process. Outreach to faculty, students and administrators at
schools help those who may not be able to visit the school itself. How schools respond
to enquiries says more than the stream on emails or tweets because a student
has entered information into a database. If a faculty member does not respond
to a well stated question that sends a loud message even if there are no
words. How interested is the faculty in helping
students? The same for those in
admission offices student support services.
I agree that traveling to schools across
the world is an exceptional education in itself. Being in schools with students
helps one understand the aura of a place and gives a sense of what kinds of
cultural differences they might face in the US. This kind of travel changed my
life and the way I see the world at home and abroad.
One thing about hearing from a smart
straight shooter like Joyce is that you know where she stands on issues. I find
this wonderfully refreshing. So often the level of language put out about college
is so sanitized that is provides little insight. I do not have to agree with
people who have strong opinions but at least I know what they are.
For all of Joyce’s exceptional insights here
and in her books and articles and comments at workshops and conferences I am
grateful. She has taught me to be better and more thorough and clear to others. She has been such a mentor for many.
But she still has told me how she does it
all. She did hint when I reached out she might tell me. In her over decades on earth
Joyce has pursued her passion—education and students: if she shares how she
does this as well as she does you can be sure I will share it here.
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